further DW thoughts...

[karenor]

I think I have more to say about DW 04x08, SitL. For those on my flist who don't care, sorry. But it's been bugging me. I've seen the entire spectrum of reactions from, wow, best thing EVAR to insultingly, horribly, bad, just a pile of shite. And then there's people like me, in the middle. I think I may have figured out WHY SM did what seems to have pissed people off so much. Maybe. I'm probably wrong. But it's worth me trying to get my thoughts out on it.



Ok. So as for the whole ripping off everything in existence to create the episode? Time Travellers Wife, a gaggle of sciFi shows, Ghostbusters, The Matrix, etc. etc. I think that there was a reason for it. It's too blatant to be just for fun, or for lazy writing. I think. There were too many DIRECT references for it just to be coincidence or generally ripoffitude.

I don't think I mentioned this in my big review yesterday, but I've become more convinced as time goes by that NOTHING is real in the ep. Not the planet (oh it exists, but where they are is some sort of simulated construct), not the girl's house, not River. I think that the reason things are so familiar is because they're coming from a MIND that's familiar with all of that. That is, the Doctor's. Note that he figured out what the creatures in the dark were VERY early. And that River, despite their off chemistry, represents everything the Doctor DOESN'T and probably will never have, a long happy companionship (and maybe more).

So, of course I know nothing about next week, not even having seen the trailer, but I wouldn't be surprised at a "it was all a dream" ending. I wouldn't be surprised to find the Doctor strapped to some machine, to find Alex Kingston playing one of the technicians or something, that he grafted a persona on to or something. I mean, as long as we're going with scifi cliches, let's go whole hog, right?

What I'm saying is that IF anything like this happens, everything that pissed off a lot of people in the first half of the two-parter might be kind of redeemed, yeah? Maybe? A little? I hope so. I mean I hope that I'm right, not that everyone should be happy with the ep.

Because there is something too OFF about River for what she says to be true. I know most of review yesterday was based on what IF it is true, but I really don't think it can be. There were off things about a LOT what was going on in this ep...

So... I guess we'll see.

Comments

[sunnytyler001.livejournal.com]

She lied. She's always lying. She said it herself.
"River Song: Hello, sweetie.
Doctor: Get out.
Donna: Doctor...
Doctor: All of you, turn around, get back in your rocket, and fly away. Tell your grandchildren you can to The Library and lived, they won't believe you.
River: Pop your helmets everyone, we've got breathers.
Annita: How do you know they're not androids?
River: 'cause I've dated androids, they're rubbish.
Strackman: Who is this? You said that we were the only expedition. I paid for exclusives.
River: I lied. I'm always lying. Bound to be others.
Strackman: Evangelista, I want to see the contracts.
River: You came through the north wall, yeah? How much damage?
Doctor: Please just leave. I'm asking you seriously and properly. Hang on. Did you say expedition?
Strackman: My expedition. I funded it.
Doctor: Oh, you're not, are you? Tell me you're not archaeologists?
River: Got a problem with archaeologists?
Doctor: I'm a time traveler, I point and laugh at archaeologists.
River: Ah. Professor River Song, archaeologist."

[karenor.livejournal.com]

Yeah, my first instinct was that she was lying. My second instinct is that... something's doing the lying for her. I dunno.

Please to not be using spoilery icons in here? I'm assuming that's just from a promo, but i'm keeping myself 100% anything-relating-to-future eps-free these days, not going into ANY comms, for fear of the hardest to avoid stuff, icons and ep titles, etc. etc.

[sunnytyler001.livejournal.com]

Oh, sorry. It's from the new DWM cover. I didn't think of it as a spoiler. Sorry again.

[karenor.livejournal.com]

I'd actually seen it before somewhere else, so I didn't have too much of a freakout (i kinda did the first), but for future reference, you know...

I'm avoiding the DWM for as long as I can. I'll probably purchase it eventually. But even the one I just bought that covers the first five episodes has stuff that's spoilery for the whole season.

[cheesygirl.livejournal.com]

Yeah, River didn't sit right with me. She seems to be tingling the Doctor's spidey sense too. I'm also thinking it's perhaps a construct, a la Castravalva. The Doctor didn't see through that one until the end either.

[karenor.livejournal.com]

She seems to be tingling the Doctor's spidey sense too.

Yeah, in more than just 'she's a future companion' kind of way. And they didn't have that connection that he'd probably have with anyone so important to him, even if they hadn't ever met before. There was a moment, i think, when he grabbed her hand, but other than that? No SOMEthing is definitely off there.

Yeah, something a la Castrovalva might not be far off. After all, we know that something isn't real, it's just a matter of HOW much is or isn't part of reality.

[tsukara.livejournal.com]

If it turns out that he does something like that in the second part and has all of these references back to other things for a reason I will eat crow. Not happily, but I'll do it.

But we'll see.

[karenor.livejournal.com]

I guess I'm just really HOPING there's a reason for it. Otherwise, what the hell is the point, just having a laugh? My show is not a toy! I don't like feeling like the show is mocking me. Worse, I don't want to feel like SM is a lazy writer who's now in CHARGE of my show.

RTD knows the kind of viewers he has and knows they wouldn't miss that stuff. So yeah, I'd like there to be a little pay off there. Otherwise it just leaves me utterly confused.

[tsukara.livejournal.com]

Me too. I don't want a show with a lazy writer. It's why people don't like family shows most of the time--they think family show is an excuse for lazy writing. Hopefully Moffat won't be giving people just that: and excuse.

[kalleah.livejournal.com]

Because there is something too OFF about River for what she says to be true.

We're primarily taking her at face value ... and that's almost too easy. It's reasonable from what we've seen to assume that she's a romantic interest for the Doctor in the future. Where's the twist, the plot, the unknown? Hmm.

[karenor.livejournal.com]

and that's almost too easy.

It IS too easy. It's also... too big of a storyline to have to tussle with in the future. If it's true, it will color everything we know about the Doctor until at least the end of Ten's tenure.

All signs point to she can't be what she appears on the surface. I'm almost sure that's true. It's the how/why that I'm less sure about. It could be as simple as she's a big fat liar and is using psychological trickery for some reason. Or it could be a more complicated 'reality isn't reality' kind of thing. I dunno.

[kalleah.livejournal.com]

If it's true, it will color everything we know about the Doctor until at least the end of Ten's tenure.

My husband and I had a disagreement about whether River recognized the Doctor as the Doctor (e.g. the man in charge) or as Ten. He thinks she didn't.

All signs point to she can't be what she appears on the surface.

The more I think about it, the more I think so, too.

[karenor.livejournal.com]

whether River recognized the Doctor as the Doctor (e.g. the man in charge) or as Ten. He thinks she didn't.

My understanding is that we were meant to think she'd travelled with Ten only when he was older (hence my rant about Time Lord Aging WTF in my initial reiew). If she'd never seen Ten at all, I think she would have been less quick to recognize him. If we take everything at face value and all. But then she did call him, she was expecting The Doctor there.

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

You can always rely on me for a bit of the English graduate meta.

Shadows can be very deceptive. You can make two hands against a wall look like a rabbit, or a dinosaur. Plato writes about our perceived existence likened to people sitting in a cave watching shadows of reality. The theme is developed slightly differently in Tennyson's narrative poem, "The Lady of Shallot", in which a woman weaving a tapestry (Penelope, anyone?) is cursed to view the real world only through a mirror, until the sight of Lancelot tempts her to look at reality.

"I am half sick of shadows, cried the Lady of Shallott"

BTW Loreena McKennit did an absolutely fabulous version of this on her album "The Mask and the Mirror"

[karenor.livejournal.com]

I has lots of English degrees, so I'm familiar with that stuff. Plato and Tennyson are my homies! Although, my degrees should be revoked for those sentences alone. ;)

You know, I just reread "The Lady of Shallot" a couple weeks ago. I hadn't looked at it in a long long time. Since early undergrad days, I think. I read it out loud and it totally made me cry.

Which song on the Loreena McKennit album is it? I have that album, and know it well, but I never made the connection.


And on topic... What do you think the shadows mean in this episode? How are they being deceptive (besides the obvious)?

[katesutton.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think Steven Moffat will redeem himself a little if this week's episode pulls the rabbit out of the hat. Even though I'd have to eat my words, I hope he does, because I want to have some anticipation for season five that isn't outright dread and because I want to enjoy the show. And I have this season until now.

[karenor.livejournal.com]

I want to have some anticipation for season five that isn't outright dread

Yeah me too. Because so far? Moffat is even more of a tool than RTD and that's quite a feat. We forgive RTD a lot of things because he actually IS brilliant. Sigh.

I suppose whehter or not there's outright dread for the next series depends a lot on how this one ends, though...